Redefining Education: How AI is Shaping the Future of Learning
An interview with Dr. Ryan Wooley, Hawken School.
Meet the Guest
Dr. Ryan Wooley is the Chief Technology Officer and Innovation Strategist for Hawken School.
From Hawken.edu:
Central to Hawken’s mission is our promise to “prepare students to navigate a complex and dynamic world with self-confidence and determination; embrace challenges with disciplined analysis and creativity; and engage others with empathy and integrity.” The fulfillment of this promise has earned Hawken a national reputation for educational excellence and innovative programming.
In addition, Ryan is a former colleague and a good friend. He has a knack for seeing what’s on the horizon and leading people to it with intelligence and empathy.
From his LinkedIn page:
I drive innovation by establishing clarity of purpose. I convert big, complex ideas into clear actions and tangible outcomes. I build and motivate teams and align their efforts to strategic goals.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanwooley/
Overview by ChatGPT
Here’s what we talked about:
Generative AI in Education: Ryan discusses his journey from skepticism to embracing generative AI, particularly in the educational context.
Technology's Dual Role: He elaborates on the dual nature of technology in education, highlighting both opportunities and threats.
Impact on Learning and Writing: Ryan reflects on how AI influences traditional learning and writing methods.
Technological Change and AI Adoption: The conversation covers the rapid evolution of AI and Ryan's personal evolution in adopting new technologies.
AI's Role in Active Learning: Ryan's perspective on using AI to enhance active learning and his experiences with implementing it in his graduate class.
Future of AI in Education: Discussion about the potential future role of AI in teaching and learning processes.
Key Points:
Ryan, an educational technologist and English teacher, initially skeptical about generative AI, recognized its transformative potential.
He highlighted the importance of balancing opportunities and risks in adopting new technologies in education.
AI's impact on traditional learning methods, especially writing, was a significant concern, fearing it might reduce the necessity for critical thinking and articulation.
Ryan transitioned from skepticism to seeing AI as a valuable tool in education, particularly for initiating tasks and enhancing the learning process.
Discussions about the future of AI in education, including speculative scenarios like AI-assisted teaching without human instructors.
Overall Sentiment:
Cautiously Optimistic: Ryan expresses a balanced view, acknowledging both the potential benefits and challenges of integrating AI into education.
Adaptive and Forward-Thinking: He shows a willingness to adapt to technological changes and explore how these can be harnessed positively in an educational context.
Concern for Traditional Learning Values: There is a recurring concern about maintaining essential learning processes, like writing and articulation, in the face of automated solutions.
Ryan's interview provides a comprehensive insight into the complexities of adopting generative AI in education, balancing optimism about its potential with caution regarding its impact on traditional learning methods. His journey from skepticism to advocacy reflects a broader narrative in educational technology about adapting to and integrating rapid technological advancements.
The Transcript with AI Analysis by Zoom
From Skeptic to Advocate: Ryan's Generative AI Journey
Ryan shared his experience with generative AI, recounting how he was initially skeptical but was impressed after trying it out. He noted that the technology had improved significantly since its early stages and was fascinated by its potential. Tim inquired about Ryan’s next steps, to which Ryan responded that he decided to confront the technology head-on. He also mentioned that he wasn’t the only one at his school exploring this technology.
Navigating the Promise and Peril of Tech in Learning
Ryan, an educational technologist, discussed the dual role of his position in identifying opportunities and threats in technology. He expressed concern about the potential threats of AI, particularly in terms of eroding education and creating opportunities for cheating. Ryan also shared his personal relationship with technology, explaining his attraction to innovation and his belief in technology’s potential to empower and progress humanity. As an English major and teacher, he has a particular interest in the connection between writing and cognition, and has conducted research on the symbiotic relationship between writing and learning.
Tim: What was your “ah-ha” moment with AI? When did you realize everything was about to change?
Ryan: Somebody—it may have been you—told me, “You’ve got to check this out. This is going to be a game changer.” When people start talking about game changers, I’m a bit low key on that. I have a little skepticism. But I went and set up an account and I tried writing an essay. It produced a pretty well written essay. As an English teacher, I would probably grade it as an A or B. This was really early on, and it’s gotten way better since then. As soon as I saw that, I thought, “Oh, man. If this is just the beginning, this is going to be some serious, ground-shaking stuff.”
Tim: Was your next call to the headmaster or to the department chairs, or did you cower in a corner and think, “My life’s going to really suck in the next year?”
Ryan: Sometimes that’s tempting, but I got to take this kind of stuff head on. It wasn’t as if nobody had heard of it. Lots of people were starting to talk about ChatGPT. It was starting to show up in the news more so and I certainly wasn’t the only one or even the first one at our school. We had people who were poking at it, but until I saw what it could do, I was in the dark about it.
I’m an educational technologist, by definition, there’s a duality to somebody like me. I have to see both opportunities and threats, and I have to tend to both of those. It’s not unique to my position, but it is a core, essential feature of what it means to be an educational technologist. I have to see both sides. I have to see opportunities, but I also have to think about guardrails. I have to think about what this means in terms of education. Is this going to erode education? Is it going to take away learning opportunities for kids? Is it going to open the doors for rampant cheating? Immediately I found myself right in the middle of all that. I think it was more intense for me because of my background.
Tim: Tell me about the relationship between education and technology as you’ve experienced it over the course of your career.
Ryan: One of the things that pulled me into technology, which is not my native land, was seeing opportunities. Technology has always been about empowerment. What kinds of skills, or opportunities, or creations does technology unlock for us? That’s what drew me into it. I tend to jump on new things. I’m always like the first one to sign up for an account. When I learn about it, I don’t hold back. I always upgrade my operating systems as soon as I possibly can. I just don’t have any fear. I want to dabble and continue to progress.
I see technology as intricately tied to our progress as human beings. But what’s interesting about AI in particular is I was an English major, and I’m an English teacher. I come from a place where writing and articulating thoughts are connected to cognition and learning. The dissertation I wrote many years after being an English major was about an online peer review system, and it pulled me into what I would call “articulation research,” which is, writing to learn, teaching to learn—the connection between writing and cognition.
The first line of my dissertation says, “Writing is regarded not only as a means of communicating and assessing understanding of content knowledge, but as a way of constructing knowledge.” The research pulled me into all of that—it really spoke to me. James Britton wrote a book called, “Language and Learning.” He wrote that we shape thought at the point of utterance.
Others have studied questions such as, “What’s the difference between solving math problems versus explaining yourself solving a math problem?” It’s been proven scientifically at this point that putting things to words sharpens your cognition. And in some cases, people would say you don’t really know something unless you can explain it or put it into words.
So when I’m looking at a tool that takes away some of that work for people, I’m worried, because that’s what learning is. Am I removing the basis for a lot of learning by having some tool that’s going to do half or more of that work for me?
I’ve gotten over that a bit as I’ve played with the tool. I’ve talked to colleagues, and, generally speaking, a lot of teachers are optimistic. But I have to admit there’s a part of me that still thinks, “Are we going to have generations of kids that aren’t going to have learn because they never had to write?”
Balancing Automation and Education: A Critical Debate
Ryan expressed concerns about the potential impact of a tool that automates certain tasks on the learning process, particularly on students’ ability to retain knowledge. He shared his thoughts with Tim, who acknowledged the concerns but reminded Ryan of his past success in implementing educational technology, emphasizing the benefits it brings. Ryan agreed, noting that while there are drawbacks, the benefits of technology, such as creating new opportunities for creation, outweigh the negatives.
Tim: I have seen you ask important questions like that over and over again. You were the catalyst for moving Hawken School forward in the mid-2000s. You were the one who brought the one-to-one program to the middle school—that whole concept and framework which you also helped to implement. If you hadn’t been in that leadership position, I don’t know if or when that would have happened. That was at a time where there weren’t many schools who were considering it, and there were a lot of schools who were using that exact same argument, saying, “If we have a device in every kid’s hand, what will happen to these traditional skills?” You were able to see past that and see where the opportunity was at the same time.
Ryan: It was about putting powerful tools in the hands of kids, and yet there are threats that come along with that. Are kids sometimes doing things on their computers in class when they’re supposed to be doing something else? Yes. That still happens. Those fears came to pass. But the real question is balance. Are there more benefits than there are drawbacks? That’s the real question. I’m still a believer that there are way more benefits, way more. Laptops opened up all kinds of opportunities for creation that weren’t there before.
Revolutionizing Classrooms with AI: A Leap towards Active Learning
Ryan shared his thoughts on using AI in education, emphasizing its potential to enhance active learning in the classroom. He acknowledged that AI could be misused, but believed that educators could help students respond appropriately. He recounted an experience where he had his graduate students use AI to generate papers, then modelled how he edited and added to the AI-generated content. Ryan suggested that AI could be particularly useful for those who struggle with initiating tasks, but stressed that its use should be followed by further engagement and critical thinking.
Ryan: When I think about AI, I think it’s going to be the same way. Yes, there are going to be kids who get away with cheating or laziness, but in the grand scheme of things, especially if we address it in the right way as educators and as educational institutions, we can shape how.
I recently taught a graduate class on managing educational technologies. We had a unit or two on AI and we talked about these threats and opportunities. We had weekly papers due and I’m sure some of them were already using AI to help them generate these papers. But in case they weren’t or didn’t know about it, I had everybody write a paper with AI.
Another way of looking at it would have been to have a bunch of discussions about how threatening it was and how schools need to clamp down on it and put filters in place or prevent kids from using it. We could have gone that route. This is a powerful tool, and if we understand it we’re going to be in better position to guide students on its use.
We can model that use. I said to the class, “I’m seeing this more as a partner and I’m not turning my mind off. I’m using it to help me get started.” Even the term generative AI—generating ideas is only one part of the writing process. Writing is an iterative process. You have to keep coming back, shaping your language. If I’m having trouble getting started, I’m looking at the blank page—for a lot of us it’s really hard to get over that hump. But if you get me started, now I can run with it. I think that’s one of those places where using it that way can help a lot of people who otherwise would struggle to get started.
Embracing AI: A Paradigm Shift in Education Technology
Tim and Ryan discussed the pace of technological change, with Tim noting how the development of AI has been rapid compared to the early days of the internet. He asked Ryan about his evolution in thinking since his first interaction with generative AI. Ryan shared that he has let go of some traditional ideas about learning and writing, recognizing that AI is making life easier for younger generations. He also identified himself as an innovator, typically being one of the first to adopt changes he is interested in, though he admitted that his responsibilities have sometimes made him more reactive than proactive.
Tim: We’re about the same age, and we were around when the internet first arrived—although you’ll remind me frequently that I’m a couple of years older than you. But I think that the pace of change in the nineties, looking back on it now and comparing it to what’s happening with AI, it feels quaint. Almost relaxed in a way. What’s happening now has my head spinning. The pace of change is accelerating quickly. From the moment you experienced your first ChatGPT interaction to where you are right now in early 2024, what is something that you believed that you no longer think is true?
Ryan: I’ve let go of the idea that you have to write longhand to learn. I still believe in the theory about articulation—we shape thought at the point of utterance. We sharpen our minds when we can explain and put things into words. But does it have to be in five paragraph essays? Does it have to be the traditional forms that we know? I’m starting to let go of some of that.
I have an 18 year old son who is about to go to college and I see what he’s able to do with what he has. “In my day we had we had to work hard…” That’s completely true, but it was true for the generations that came before us.
Think about the idea that you could type a paper without having to start at the beginning, and having to retype the whole thing every time you want to revise because all they had were typewriters. With word processors, we could go in the middle of the document and change a word, or change a sentence, or grab a paragraph. How easy was that comparatively? Nobody’s wrong. Life does get easier for people.
Are you “glass is half full” or “glass is half empty” person? If your glass is half empty, you’re lamenting those changes. You’re saying, “That hard work paid off for me, and the next generation is not going to have do it.” Or you can say, “I don’t know that everybody needs to do that.” I don’t know what benefit there was to retyping everything. The changes that have come with AI or the opportunities that I’ve seen have been so profound that I’ve had to rethink what’s sacred and what isn’t. It’s important for my generation to let go of some of that.
The Evolution of AI in Education: From Past to Future
Tim and Ryan discussed the current and future state of artificial intelligence (AI) in educational technology. Ryan noted a decrease in hype around AI but did not anticipate a significant disillusionment as many teachers saw potential benefits. He traced the evolution of technology in education, from the affordability of personal computers to the emergence of the internet and social media. The conversation then shifted to AI with self-learning capabilities, with Tim posing a scenario of using an AI with knowledge of the world’s best literature in a classroom to assist children in essay writing. Ryan found this plausible and concluded the discussion on a futuristic note. Ryan also emphasized the evolution of the teaching profession and the challenges it faces, stressing the importance of relationships with students and adaptability to changing times.
Tim: Where would you place yourself on Rogers’ Adoption Curve?
Ryan: I would say I’m an innovator in that I tend to jump on things as soon as I learn about them, as long as I have time, and sometimes time is the factor. But I’m also different in terms of what I try to sell to other people. I don’t necessarily think being an innovator is healthy for everybody. Usually, I like to be at the very front end of changes that I am interested in.
Tim: Would you say that’s true for AI as well?
Ryan: I think so. I was kind of disappointed in myself because I initially learned about AI from other people. I felt like I’d taken my eye off the ball a bit, but that’s in general what happened to me over the course of my career in educational technology. As our school grew, as my responsibilities grew, it got harder and harder to be looking out in front and seeing what was coming. So I felt more reactive than I did proactive with AI.
Tim: If it makes you feel any better, there were people at Meta and Google and Amazon and Microsoft who were getting those same emails about OpenAI. I don’t think you were alone in that regard, in not seeing this coming. Where would you place AI on Gartner’s Hype Cycle from the perspective of educational technology?
Ryan: I feel like the news about AI was peaking six months ago. Every night I was watching a newscast or reading an article about it in periodicals, but I think we’re definitely past the peak. Now it just depends on where you think we are. I think a lot of teachers have tried it. I think a lot of teachers have used it to help them make lesson plans. So everybody’s temperature has come down.
The trough of disillusionment—I’m very familiar with this graph. I use this graph in my classes. The trough of disillusionment can be short lived, and it can be shallow. It doesn’t have to be deep. I would say we haven’t hit a trough of disillusionment yet, but when we do, it’s not going to linger there long. And I don’t think that it’s going to go very deep. Teachers I’ve talked to are seeing a lot of opportunity for themselves, and I think that’s a great thing because that’s going to help them see it for their students too.
I’ve been in education now for 27 years. I think when you’ve had that kind of longevity, every so often you hear people talking about game changers, and certainly AI is one of those. The internet was one of those. They both are truly game changers. But at the same time, if you walk into a classroom it still looks largely like a classroom did a long time ago. Some of the activities are different, but—experience has taught me to be cautious about jumping to the conclusion that something is a “game changer,” that everything’s going to be different. I’m a little more tempered in terms of my expectations.
It was only in the late 90s when PCs were affordable in ways that schools could set up computer labs. And then in the early 2000s the very earliest one-to-one programs started. We’re talking about stuff that’s only 20 years old, and then social media didn’t come around until the mid 2000s. This was just 20 years ago. It did change the world in very big ways, but we’re still here.
These technologies don’t seem to be as seismic as you get older, they don’t ruffle your feathers as much because you’ve seen it before.
The Future of AI in Teaching: Beyond Human Capabilities
Ryan and Tim discussed the potential of teaching and learning without a human teacher. Ryan expressed his belief that AI technology could perform this task better than humans, sharing his personal experience teaching fifth-grade language arts. He suggested that AI technology could benefit teachers by streamlining tasks such as creating lesson plans and improving their work quality. Ryan also emphasized the importance of modeling for students by using AI technology in class to demonstrate its potential and encourage students to further develop it. The discussion ended with Tim posing a last question.
Tim: What we’re calling AI now are chatbots, like ChatGPT. But AGI (artificial general intelligence) is generally defined as human level intelligence with self-learning capabilities. Moving from chatbots to a computer that can reason like a human feels like a massive chasm to me. ChatGPT is more like an algorithm or computer program, but the next phase is going to be something completely different. Have you thought about that yet?
Ryan: When it can do things on its own, like program their own programs—yeah that’s totally different. Have I thought about it a lot? Probably not enough. I haven’t necessarily been gobbling up research about it, but I’m aware that it’s coming.
Tim: Can I pose a hypothetical to you? You’ll appreciate this as an English teacher and a writer. Imagine, in the near term, we reach AGI. We feed it a data set of all the world’s best literature—Shakespeare, Hemingway, Updike, Joyce Carol Oates—whatever you deem to be “good” literature. We put this canon of the world’s best literature into this AGI, and we put that AGI into a classroom for a course called, “Writing Essays Like the Masters.” The AGI now has an intimate knowledge of every one of the world’s best stories, it also has the ability to communicate at a human level. Maybe the “brain” is placed inside a robot and that “teacher” is now in the classroom with those kids. Does this sound like sci-fi to you, or is it plausible?
Ryan: I’ve thought a great deal over my career about the changing role of the teacher. What does it mean to be a teacher? It has to evolve. And that’s one of the places where I would wonder if we’ve really processed that possibility.
In many cases, but not all, teachers had a good experience in education. They connected with their teachers, they had those relationships and now they want to create that same experience for children today. This is not unimportant stuff. Having relationships with kids is a big part of what it means to be a teacher. But what we do with our time, how we teach skills—that can really change.
We have to be careful of the “good ole days” mentality. I’m an educator. I oversee a lot of teachers. My wife is in education. It is all around me. So I have respect for the profession. But can I imagine kids being taught without a human in the room as the teacher? Yes, I can easily imagine that. I can not only imagine that happening, I can imagine it being better from a pure learning standpoint.
I know people have toyed with that idea. There’s that movie called Her, with Joaquin Phoenix. I know people have thought about a relationship with robots. I don’t know if you can replace the human connection, at least not on that level, but you certainly can for the teaching and learning aspect. There will come a time when a computer can do that better than we can.
I’m teaching fifth grade language arts this year, which I’ve never done before. We do read alouds every day. And I’m tracking with the other class and we’re reading the same book. But my kids love it so I’ll do extra chapters. I was looking around for stories and I found this one by Isaac Asimov from around 1948. It’s set in 2036 and the kids go to a computerized teacher at school. I’m sure his presentation of it doesn’t look like what you’re describing exactly, but it’s probably not that far off either. Asimov was forward-focused.
Tim: You’re the assistant headmaster of a school and you have a lot of responsibility. You’re mentoring and coaching, helping on a daily basis. Imagine you’re in the faculty room getting a cup of coffee and Tommy or Tammy Teacher walks up to you. They say, “I’m teaching seventh grade math. I’m coaching. I got papers to grade, report cards, comments to write. All this AI stuff—I don’t have a lot of bandwidth to keep up with it. So what can I do right now? What’s the best thing I can be doing right now just to get in the game?”
Ryan: You got to get in with both hands. You can’t just look at this from afar. I think you have to be using it to accomplish things that you need. It’s really the only way, otherwise it’s too theoretical.
There are mundane tasks that we have as teachers that can be streamlined for us, such as creating lesson plans. And sometimes it’s not creating a lesson plan, but getting good ideas from the process. If you tell AI, “Hey, make me a lesson plan on blah, blah, blah.” You’ll probably get back stuff that you wouldn’t have thought of because AI has such a different perspective. That would be the main piece of advice—to get started.
I think modeling is really important. The next step after you start playing with AI and using it for your own needs would be to think about what it means to model the kind of use you would want to see from your students. Bring it into your classes. Open up ChatGPT one day in class and type some prompts. Show them what comes from it and then demonstrate how you can take that and mold it so they can see the process. Not using it to create a final product. Instead we’re using it as a starting point that we can build from.
Insights & Actionable Advice by ChatGPT
Embrace Generative AI as a Starting Point for Learning: Ryan's experience suggests that AI can be an effective tool to help overcome initial hurdles in the learning process, such as initiating tasks. Educators can encourage students to use AI for generating initial ideas or drafts, which can then be further developed through critical thinking and creativity. This approach can especially assist students who struggle with starting assignments.
Balance Technology's Opportunities and Risks: As an educational technologist, Ryan stresses the importance of recognizing both the opportunities and the potential threats of AI in education. This implies that schools should adopt a balanced approach, integrating AI into the curriculum while being mindful of its potential to undermine traditional learning values like critical thinking and articulation.
Promote Active Learning and Engagement with AI: Ryan discusses using AI in his graduate class to enhance active learning. This implies that AI should not be viewed merely as a means to automate tasks but as a tool that requires active engagement and thoughtful interaction. Teachers can use AI to create more dynamic and interactive learning experiences, encouraging students to critically engage with and build upon the content generated by AI.
Adapt and Evolve Educational Practices: Ryan’s shift from skepticism to advocacy for AI in education highlights the need for educators to adapt their teaching methods to incorporate new technologies. This includes rethinking traditional formats and methods of teaching and being open to new ways AI can complement and enhance the learning experience.
Model Responsible and Creative Use of AI: Ryan emphasizes the importance of educators modeling the use of AI. This involves demonstrating to students how AI can be used responsibly as a tool to aid learning and creativity, rather than as a shortcut for completing tasks. By showing students how to interact with AI constructively, educators can guide them in harnessing its potential ethically and effectively.
These insights suggest a proactive and balanced approach towards integrating AI into educational settings, emphasizing its role as a supplementary tool to enhance learning while maintaining critical engagement and traditional educational values.
New Educator AI Mission Statement
As the founder of New Educator AI, I am committed to leading the transformation of education through the integration of Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) and Advanced Synthetic Intelligence (ASI). I understand the monumental impact these technologies will have on humanity, and I am dedicated to preparing our schools for this future. My mission is to guide educational leaders, policymakers, and administrators by providing insightful information, actionable AI policy advice, and hands-on training. With my unique background in education, entrepreneurship, and technology, I aim to equip the next generation to use AI safely and responsibly, ensuring they are not left behind in this rapidly evolving landscape.
© 2024, Timothy J. Desmond
All rights reserved. No part of this work may be used or reproduced in any manner whatsoever without written permission except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical articles and reviews.
Interesting interview! Thanks! I’d like to push back a little on the idea that writing is a method of knowledge production—articulating knowledge in the context of writing to learn. In some ways reading is much more significant in knowledge production than writing—my point being that the relationship between literacy and knowledge production is complex and multifaceted. AI has no capacity to produce knowledge, but to represent language that has been used to communicate information and ideas. In this way, AI is more like reading than like writing. I would love to see classroom based research involving a group teachers who integrate AI into reading assignments AND a group who use it integrated into writing assignments. My bet is that the reading teachers discern a paradigm more to their liking than the writing teachers. The way into integration between AI and literacy may be first through reading and then writing. What do you think?